Turkish President Erdoğan claimed that Israel threatens Türkiye’s national security. The Turkish parliament held a closed session about the issue, where the government informed the parliamentarians on the confidentiality basis.
We asked Ismail Hakkı Pekin, retired Lieutenant-General of the Turkish Armed Forces and former Head of Intelligence at the Chief of Staff. Pekin described in which ways Israel could pose a threat to Türkiye, and also recalled his own reunions with MOSSAD when he was in charge.
President Erdoğan says Israel is increasingly posing a threat to Türkiye. What kind of a concrete threat do you think Israel can pose to Türkiye?
Let me put it this way, of course, Israel does not pose a direct threat to Türkiye. Even our trade continues to a large extent. We buy goods from them and sell goods to them.
But Israel could pose a threat. Israel’s actions in Palestine, its bombings of Beirut, its attacks on Hezbollah, its bombing of Lebanon, have suddenly changed the balance. A vacuum of authority began to form. Hezbollah has withdrawn its troops from Syria.
Power vacuum created in Syria
And when that preoccupation began, so did Israel’s other countries. In the meantime, on the Syrian border, they began to expand their sphere of influence, such as HTS in Idlib, since full authority could not be established in Syria. The expansion of these areas creates several dangers.
There are several dangers. One of them is the place where the PKK, the YPG or the Syrian Democratic Forces are located. I think that it will cause problems for them to do some things and declare a special zone in that region against Türkiye. There are also terrorists inside Türkiye. Our struggle with them continues.
Secondly, there is Hayat Tahrir al-Sham in Idlib. There are other groups along with him. In some places, they are stronger than the Free Syrian Army or the Syrian National Army. As such, they take control of those places. A problem may arise as these groups enter Aleppo.
There is a huge gang order in Syria. Organizations extort money, kidnap people. They have taken control of these places. Turkish currency is largely valid in the current area, but HTS has taken over it.
The intervention of this organization in Aleppo can create a power vacuum. Migrations from Aleppo may begin again.
Recently, a rocket fell right in the vicinity of Kilis. And this the rocket actually originated from elements of the Syrian National Army that were fighting with each other. In other words, they are now organized as the Sultan Murat Brigade and other brigades. The name is brigade, but the size is not a brigade. That’s how they’re gathered, and they’re opening up where they see gaps. There is a threat emanating from this on the Turkish border. Because the border is no longer secure. There is a problem that the border is no longer secure.
Israel has reached an agreement with Russia, and the Russian surveillance detachments in the Golan Heights have been completely withdrawn. The Russians are withdrawing these detachments in their entirety and sending them to northern Syria.
They are sending both their own troops and some Syrian troops to the north of Syria. There is a vacuum, but Israel has pledged not to carry out any operations against Damascus from there.
Meanwhile, work continues with opposition groups in Hama, Homs, Idlib, the countryside of Latakia, the north of Aleppo.
These groups are not the Syrian National Army, which we have raised or trained in Syria. In general, these are the religious extremist groups there, that is, the remnants of ISIS. For them, Russia’s air force operates together with Syria’s air force.
These groups threaten both us and Russia. Russia has a Hymemim base there. Then there is the coast of Latakia. They are trying to ensure the safety of all these places.
On the other hand, the U.S. air force struck Iranian-deployed elements in the Deir ez-Zor region. So there is great chaos in the region. It affects the security of Türkiye’s southern borders.
It is this issue that threatens Türkiye. Otherwise, Israel will not be able to make a move against Türkiye. But it can support the PKK, increase its power in the region, and have the YPG establish an autonomous region. All these are significant threats.
Possible terror attacks on Turkish soil
Do you think it is possible for Israeli-linked terrorist elements to operate in Türkiye and carry out terrorist attacks?
Certain elements in particular. They are not necessarily Israeli agents, but a number of Islamist terrorists are powerful groups in Syria, for example, HTS is a powerful group, trying to dismantle other groups. It’s trying to take control over others. That is, it swallows small groups. Of course, there are Syrians who are in Türkiye when Israel might use, both inside and outside Syria. There are also Afghans.
By using the sleeper cells that have settled among them, perhaps they have determined at the moment, it is natural for them to create terrorist activity in Türkiye. From time to time, the police and sometimes the National Intelligence Organization (MIT) work on these issues and catch them.
But something bigger could come up. That is, when the work flares up. We assess that there will probably be a big explosion in Iraq and Syria. Türkiye may be asked to intervene in these areas. I think Türkiye should make a very good calculation. He should do something without interfering here, without interfering intelligently.
Because when it intervenes in these places, the terrorist activities you have mentioned, the terrorist cells come into play. Do we already know who is working for US intelligence, which states, which groups are working for Anglo-French intelligence? We don’t know, but they exist, they work, and some Arab countries give them money.
Therefore, there is such a threat. I think it’s a big threat.
There is already a huge gang and mafia in Türkiye right now. They can even take strength from these and attempt greater things.
Recently, Israeli police determined that a terrorist attack in Tel Aviv in July was planned by Hamas’ cells in Türkiye. Isn’t this research for the Israeli Security Organization actually targeting Türkiye, or rather Hamas members in Türkiye?
True. We don’t know how realistic that study is. Because Türkiye supports Hamas. The President has already said this openly. But I don’t know how they know that the planning is done here. But this is a threat to Türkiye that Türkiye will support Hamas. Or warning, let’s say. Therefore, this will affect Türkiye in the eyes of the West. Israel has done this in the past, and it can use certain terrorist organizations to intervene in them. In other words, it interferes with elements of Hamas. Problems may arise because they are staying in Türkiye.
Of course, they can’t make enough moves to confront Türkiye right now. In other words, they are dealing with their own problems. But then these things can happen. They’ve done it before, and they’ve done it before. They kidnapped people in Türkiye with the help of Mossad men, they did a lot of things. For example, Chechens were even shot by Russian intelligence. These are the usual things; these things can happen.
Meeting MOSSAD
While you were in office, you conducted negotiations with the Mossad as part of your duties. Have you encountered such implicit threats in these meetings?
Not with such threats, but with a number of carrot extensions. I can name a few. One of them is that during the meeting with the Mossad, we even had a meeting with the Mossad for an hour or two. I also met with Aman, the Israeli military intelligence. At that time, Barzani was not a state. It could be 2008.
They insisted on telling us: Tell your commanders: Yes, civilians, your politicians are meeting with Barzani. But let a military delegation headed by a Lieutenant General go and visit. Because Barzani hopes for more military forces. Because then his reputation will increase, he will feel safe.
They have said these many times. I had left. On the way to the airport, again the head of the Mossad, now deceased, sent me a note to the airport. “Please do something like this when you discuss these issues with the commanders.”
Another example: Türkiye had satellite studies at that time. In Aman, that is, in military intelligence, where all satellites are connected to military intelligence. Electronic intelligence, satellites, etc., all of this depends there. Therefore, he was headed by an aviation major general. They offered us: “You need a satellite. You don’t have to build one.’
Soldier satellites fly in low orbit to see more such things. So they said, “let’s rent this satellite to you. This satellite will fall in 4-5 years anyway, you can use it. At that time, you build your own satellite”.
As a threat there is this example: My trip to Iran. I went to visit Iran’s intelligence. While I was meeting with them, I visited a place under the ground, where the first raw material of uranium, they call powder cake, was made.
I talked to the manager of the place and others. I was informed. It’s about nuclear work, it’s about nuclear testing. Then we left. They said, let’s take a picture. We took pictures together. Our delegation and the Iranian delegation.
Then, when I came to Israel for a meeting, after the normal talks were over, there was a private meeting between the heads of the two delegations. That is, between me and the head of Israeli intelligence. There he took out a picture. He showed us the photo we had taken in Iran. He said, “You have visited that.” He said, “You took a picture.” He pointed it out.
If a settlement process or something similar starts in Türkiye, how will Israel react to this?
I think it will probably be welcome. Maybe I’m saying what our state or government understands. These developments concern us. These developments may eventually find a statelet to the south of us.
The Iraqi Kurdish regional government may evolve in a different direction. In addition, terrorism can spread to Türkiye’s affairs by strengthening it a little more. They demand them. So these things can happen.
Of course, Israel would like this, first of all. But I sense that Türkiye is doing its own thing so that no one from outside can interfere.
Is this so? We’ll live and see. Because we must do certain things. Some things. We also have made mistakes in the past. We have to look at them as well. Mistakes from the past, a mistake we made, led to eight hundred people being called a thing in a thing. This is in trench events. Also, what I fear the most is the use of foreign policy as a basis for domestic policy.