From Athens / Greece
US Secretary of State, Marco Rubio called in his speech in the Munich Security Conference to “revive the Western Civilization”. Amid the war in West Asia, western countries are mounting up their military deployment to the Eastern Mediterranean, while tensions are increasing between Greece and Türkiye over the positioning of air defenses on some Greek islands.
We spoke about all these issues with Yiannis Rachiotis, an international relations expert, lawyer, member of the Hellenic Union of Progressive Lawyers and the International Association of Democratic Lawyers- IADL.
So, let’s start with Rubio. Rubio made an interesting speech in the Munich Security Conference. How is your evaluation of that?
Marco Rubio, with his speech in the Munich Security Conference, expressed blatantly the US plan for the 21st century based on their point of view on the world’s history of the last two centuries. He praised the old colonialism as the common proud of the entire West, as their common foundation. He praised the European expansion to the West, the massacre of the Native Americans, but together he characterized the Palestinians as barbarians. Of course, he had a negative word to say for the anti-colonial movements which liberated the Global South and was even more hostile about the communist revolutions, of course. He told us that from 1945 until today, the West has had a temporary loss of control over the planet, which the U.S. will correct now, either alone or with the help of their ideological ancestors, as he described the former colonial powers.
On Rubio: “The West is faced with 7.5 billion people. They cannot subjugate them all.”
He openly denied to the non-Western countries to have control on their resources or their own supply chains on industrial development. Finally, U. S. is denying to the rest of the world an independent path. He rejected any notion of international law, even the so -called rules -based international order, his predecessors promoted.
What he practically said is that the only rule that the U.S. could accept is their own interests. With a specific reference to Venezuela and to the destruction of Iran’s nuclear facilities, he declared that the U.S. would subjugate or distract any country that does not voluntarily submit.
He made clear that the West will continue the war of attrition against Russia indefinitely, until it submits, either through the exhaustion of its capabilities or by complying with their demands. The conclusion is that they will continue the policy of regaining control on every country that resists imperialist policies, with the exception of China, for which he said that they will try to maintain a modus vivendi until they manage to cut down its economic relations with a great part of the world, as they wish, of course.
All this is a declaration of war against the Global South, a declaration of a modern recolonization of the greatest part of the world, whether with the help of former colonial powers of Europe or not. That means that independent countries, one after another, and first and foremost Iran, will face imperialist aggressions and regime change operations. Cuba, Nicaragua and the countries of the Sahel will follow.
We hope that they can withstand it. Even a protracted war is a more hopeful development than an immediate collapse. New resistance movements will be born. The ideological unification of the Global South on the basis of the principles of the UN Charter needs to and will go further. The coming years will be difficult, but I am optimistic. The West is faced with 7.5 billion people. They cannot subjugate them all.
Greece not part of Rubio’s Western Civilization
I would like to ask you a little bit on the same issue from the specific Greek perspective. For instance, Rubio talks about a civilization, Western civilization. Now, generally, it’s considered that historically, Ancient Greece was one of the, if not the most important cradle of this Western civilization. Do you feel that Greece is part of this Rubio’s concept? Does it appeal to you as, yes, we are part of this and we should be, or is it a different concept than what, for you, in your eyes, Greek civilization historically meant?
Look, Greece and most of the Balkans and East Europe is a member of NATO, is a member of EU, that means that Greece, as the rest of our area, is part of the so-called West. But thinking on the future of the world, not about the past of the world, Greece, as the Balkans, as the European periphery as a whole, is part of the global South, according to my point of view, not part of the Western project. When we speak about the West, we mean the core of the Western countries, that means the old colonial powers. Greece and the rest of the Balkans, it’s something else. Our future should be to the cooperation with the rest of our area, that means with the rest of the Balkan countries and the countries of East Mediterranean.
We are not part of the colonial past of the Western civilization. We are something else and we need to find our path to this road and not to the recolonization of our world which is the goal of the U.S. and their allies in Central Europe.
Difference between Greek public opinion and government
How do you observe in the public opinion in Greece? Were they attracted by this call of Rubio, or do they feel more like you say that this is a concept of the old European colonial power?
Look, in Greece we are unlucky this period. We have the grand majority of the population anti-Western, against imperialism, in favor of the resistance to imperialism. We have a tradition of anti -imperialism. Our country was bombed by the Americans during our civil wars. We had thousands of victims from the British and American intervention in our country during the 40s.
We had a blatant dictatorship imposed by the United States from 1967 till 1974. We have paid a serious cost on the West for living in this place, but we are unlucky having a political system in Greece fully controlled by the American Embassy. For this reason, we are unlucky. Our political system is something really different comparing with our society. Our society has the tradition that I described, the sense I described, although the propaganda is happening part in our days because the American Embassy controls the whole of our media, because our media in Greece are controlled by the ship owners and the only boss, as you can understand, of the ship owners is the Americans, not the Greek government, for a lot of reasons.
That means that the Greek society has two enemies. One enemy is the political system. The second enemy is the foreign control on our media. And this is the Greek problem.
I would like to ask you about this ship owners’ issue because the European Union is now imposing more and more sanctions on Russia and the transport of Russian oil. And there are some reports, I’m not an expert on this, but there are some reports that besides others, also Greek ships are usually transporting Russian oil and that these transports will be targeted by the sanctions as well. Is there not a kind of, among them, a kind of What kind of rejection against these sanctions regimes as it affects more and more their material interest?
Look, the Greek ship owners is a very strong part of our elite. the strongest part of our elite, with strong connections with the U. S. and with the West in general. Of course, they are working in the transportation of Russian oil. They are doing everything from which they can make money. It is clear. They have only one limit, and this limit is not the Greek government, it is the Americans’ will, because the Americans are controlling the oceans, are controlling the sea. The commercial vessels cannot work without American Navy or against the American Navy.
That means that our ship owners how to obey American will and to work in the limits Americans are putting for them. So, they are going to stop transferring Russian oil when the Americans decide for them to stop.
Being members of NATO, Greece and Türkiye have the same boss, but the Turkish position is much stronger
Then I come to the other question. The Greek -Turkish relations, where are they going to? What’s going to happen? What’s your perception? There has been a meeting between Prime Minister Mitsotakis and President Erdogan, which was presented, at least in Türkiye, as something carefully positive. But what do you think?
Yes, this is what they gave to the media. And we have to separate the media, the words from the real politics between our two countries. It’s two different things what they say to the media. Look, Greece and Türkiye were both members of NATO.
They are still members of NATO, from 1952 till now. That means that both countries have the same boss, but under different conditions in the last decades. Türkiye ended up being a strong country in our area with a big population, with an independent, more or less independent economy. These conditions do not exist in Greece.
Greece has a small population going down. And also, a very, very weak economy without productive base. This is the great point. So, the two countries have no comparable power or influence, let’s say, in the area.
What the Americans, what the boss want in the area is to control the whole of the area. And of course, they understand that Türkiye has to play a key role. on this more important role because of its neighboring with its borders with Middle East and with East Mediterranean in general, and with Russia as well, Black Sea, and so on.
So, this is a very important role. Türkiye needs to exploit this position, and it’s easy to exploit it against the weaker countries of the area, like Syria, like Greece, like Bosnia, and so on. That means that if we are staying in NATO, we have to pay a heavy price, not only to the but also to the strong player in our area. The strong player in our area after all is Türkiye. So, we have to pay something there.
We are not equals at the moment. We lost already the control of the exclusive economic zone in the Aegean Sea. After 2020, Türkiye, in reality, controls the economic zone of Aegean. This is a serious defeat for Greek politics. The Turkish side in 2020 told to Greece that they believe that all Aegean Sea except six miles from your border is our sea, is our land.
If you don’t agree with this, we have to make war with us. We are here, we are warships and if you like you can face us.
And of course, the Greek said that it’s not the time for this and this is a serious loss after that. We lost the exclusive economic zone. That means that the fisherman from Samothraki or from Limnos is not allowed now to go out from six miles for fishing, to put it simply.
Or the Greek government, if it wants to put a cable between, let’s say, Rhodes and Cyprus and Rhodes and Crete, it has to ask Turkish authorities for an authorization. This is the situation now. It’s difficult to change this at this time. Only under a different geopolitical concept could Greece avoid being a satellite of Türkiye. That does not mean that Greece is not a satellite of the U.S. and the West, but a satellite can be a satellite to various centers.
And as things go now, the satellite that is going to earn more power is Türkiye. This is the future. The opposite direction for this is a kind of Balkan cooperation, because any Balkan country, every Balkan country is small. to avoid control from the U.S. or from Türkiye. So they need a strong and deep cooperation in order to have their independence.
Even a federal future for the Balkan states is necessary in order to balance the situation with Türkiye and with Westerners.
Greece’s vital need to leave NATO
You commented pretty critically about Greece’s NATO membership. Would you propose that Greece leaves NATO and joins a kind of compact defense agreement or something?
It is a vital necessity for Greece, if Greece wants to became for first time in its statehood an independent state. Look, we are a state, an independent state, 200 years, more or less, something less than 200 years. But during this time, we were never truly independent.
We were always controlled by foreign powers. Till the 40s of the 20th century by the British, and after the 40s by the US. If we don’t withdraw our country from the American structures, military structures, economic structures, and so on, it’s impossible to speak of independence. It’s a vital necessity. I know that this is difficult. I think that this is the task for our society, for our people to start struggling for this goal, like our previous generations did in the past.
Which Balkan countries would be, there’s a number of them, but which Balkan countries are in that concept the most important for you?
I can say all. All the Balkan countries are important for a cooperation project, for a project of independence. In the Balkans, I think that if the majority is not independent, are not independent, nobody could be independent.
It’s impossible for Macedonia or for Montenegro or Bulgaria to be independent, to prosper without the prosperity and the independence of the rest of our area, because we are not big, we are small countries. and a condition for small countries to be independent is to cooperate with their neighbors, to fix a pole. In a future multipolar world, we need our own pole if we need to be independent.
